Two Steps Forward, One Step Back: Prop. 8 Scores A Victory For Hate
Last night's election was a historic event on so many levels. It has proved that this country is ready for a big change, but how big a change are they willing to make. California's Prop. 8, Arizona's Ammendment 102 and Florida's Ammendment 2, which proposed bans on gay marriage, all passed by a fairly large margin although in California it stands at a 52% majority, an improvement over the 60% majority we saw last time this came up. Similarly, Arkansas' Initiative 1 has successfully banned adoption of children by same sex couples.
It boggles the mind to think that a state like California, which is known to be so liberal, could really perpetuate this hateful behavior. I have lived in San Francisco for a large portion of my life and seeing same sex couples is a daily occurrence for me. With the election of our first African American president, it seems that things are taking a turn for the better and on the whole, I suppose they are. But the battle for same sex couple equality still has a long way to go before we see an outcome in our favor. Hopefully the change to a more liberal government will help things along, but for now we are still stuck in a place where we are being denied our basic Constitutional rights. I am thrilled about the election of Barack Obama, but it is a bittersweet victory to be sure. Maybe one day gay marriage will not be confined solely to the world of video games. A world that suddenly seems much more accepting than it did yesterday.
Fruit Brute
Posted to Hot Stuff, Miscellany, Site News on 5 November 2008
· Comments (45)
Other stuff like this: gay marriage, hate, proposition 8
I actually broke down and started crying when I read prop 8 had passed. Then I was pissed off. I still am. It's upsetting that the joy I felt at Obama's victory is marred by this.
If Prop 8 does pass I don’t see how the California supreme court could not review it and overturn it, unless their previous arguments regarding gay marriage were wrong based on the rest of the constitution. The part of the constitution they used as the basis for their argument regarding gay marriage hasn’t changed, so if Prop 8 gets added there will definitely be a conflict in the constitution with itself.
Well, for a start, isn’t there the ongoing question about whether it’s actually an amendment, or a constitutional change which requires a larger supermajority? The courts wouldn’t consider that before it passed, but now they will have to. There’s also the point that it conflicts with the equal protection clause, and the courts will have to decide what happens when the constitution contradicts itself. I wouldn’t give up just yet. These are quite arguable points. Just sad that it now has to go through the courts again and if successful it will be seen as “activist judges” overruling the will of the people yet again.
"Every ethnic group supported marriage equality, except African-Americans, who voted overwhelmingly against extending to gay people the civil rights once denied them: a staggering 69 - 31 percent African-American margin against marriage equality. That's worse than even I expected. Whites, on the other hand, clearly rejected discrimination: 55 to 45 percent. Latinos were evenly split." -Andrew Sullivan
African American voters show up in record numbers to support Obama. Obama's against Proposition 8, but most other African Americans are for it. 2+2=4. Obama caused more African Americans to vote for him, but they voted for Prop 8 at the same time, ignoring his stance. All they wanted was a man in the White House and fuck the other minorities. That Obama was in those African American religious rallies along with people who supported Prop 8. He may have been vocally against it, but actions speak louder than words. And the African American religious community has spoken - Fags don't Deserve Rights. The message of the Racial Minorities is now "We've Got Ours, Finally, To Hell with the GLBTS."
Well, democracy goes both ways. Majority wins. :( I'm bummed out, but fair's fair.
This day is going to be the day I first developed Bi-Polar Syndrome.
But democracy goes both ways. Majority wins.
I'm bummed out, but if we are all to get along, we have to all abide by the system. Not only when it works in our favor.
Boo that gay people have no equal rights, but well, majority wins. :(
@Zeta:
I understand your venom, as I'm wrestling with the viper of hatred right now as well, but the very last thing we need is more division.
There are wins and there are losses, good things happen and bad things happen. You can't blame Barack Obama, someone who supports our community and is going to do his damndest to make sure that we have the rights that are owed to us, for the actions of closed-minded people. He's just a man, he doesn't control anyone. If he did control those voters, then America WOULD be broken. I know it's difficult to not react violently and angrily, it hurts me just as much as anyone else in our community, but we have to stand tall and perservere. The simple fact of the matter is that we are right, and they are wrong. The truth will prevail as long as we're here to shield and guide it.
If you can't tell, this election has rekindled my hope in humanity in general, and America specifically. We can make this happen. We can secure our rights in this brave new world. A setback? Sure... but not a permanent one.
Allow me to close with a quote from a personal inspiration. In his life he's been a poet, a scholar, a teacher, a singer, a bum, and a superstar.
"The times, they are a-changin'"
-Bob Dylan
I'll reserve commentary about Obama until we see how effective his proposals really are.
As for the California decision, it's almost unfathomable to know that for only a few months we had a law, leveraging our rights as human beings, and it was taken away for what? I don't think even those who opposed it know.
Don't feel too bad about 8. Yes, it's horrible, but it passed by a much smaller margin than last time. Polling consistently showed that it's old people who support this by a huge margin and young people opposed it (even though you see little Mormon children out on the street corners holding the signs).
So like the video game violence 'problem', this will all mostly go away as the dumb old people die off, leaving some marginalized bigots. Obviously this isn't great, but things have gotten much better.
Democracy here is a funny thing. You don't vote a president in through popular vote but you DO vote in amentments to your state's constitution through it. It's interesting how we as a society can pick and choose how things pass and not others, especially when it's issues like these where parts of the society are chosen to be discriminated.
Here's to the republic!
ahhh yes... it was that awkward feeling i had right after i knew Obama got elected... this sensation like all the happy couple all felt very very sad...
Damn you California, damn you to hell...
sigh... that's one very low blow here...
I feel sucker punched.
I am excited and happy to have an African American man voted to be the leader of the free world.
Also, more Democrats have been elected, and Democrats are the majority in the House and Senate. the news media keeps telling me this is a new era for equal rights. I keep hearing that The Dream of MLK has been fulfilled.
"Yes, we can!" is being chanted by millions of people across the country. I see most of the our leaders, celebrities and their supporters patting themselves in the back. Smiles, hugs, tears of joy all around.
Yet, under all the happiness, hope and excitement, hate still lingers. Hiding in plain sight.
"No, you can't" is what I hear from my fellow Americans.
"No, you can't" get married.
"No, you can't" adopt a child.
"No, you can't" form and have a Family.
"No, you can't" have the same rights as We do.
Right now I am disappointed.
It's so shameful that there are Californians who think farm animals are more deserving of basic rights (Prop 2 passing) than their fellow (gay) humans. We are apparently below chickens on their scale.
I'm not sure why everyone is so surprised here. Just because we have a elected a man who is half black as President does not mean that all of the injustices of the world have been solved.
If anything, it could be argued that the black community voted for Obama for no other reason except for that he is black. Which means when it comes to race we really havent gotten anywhere.
On the issue of gay marriage... We gays tend to be ultra liberal (though I'm not sure why) and forget that that are other more libertarian solutions to our problems. Why are we fighting to keep the government in the business of issuing a marriage license? Why is it that anyone needs 'permission" from some clerk in an office to marry a consenting adult.
I say think about the future and think about the governments overwhelming involvement in our lives. We should be fighting to privatize marriage as it was before the civil war.
Liberal and conservatives need to wake up - the government is not the solution to everything.
Tuck, your comparison is so completely off, it's not even funny. The lives endured by factory farm animals are a nightmare beyond most human comprehension. The denial of equal marriage rights of gay people, terrible as it is, does not even compare in the slightest to such horror.
To Molepunch:
I really want to respond to this post at length a little later, but in the meantime I would like to recommend that you look up the definition of Civil Rights. Most census data shows that we are a mere 10% of this nation's population. Civil Rights are supposed to protect the interests of minorities who cannot compete with the majority opinion. This is no less true now than it was in the 60s: Separate is NEVER equal.
This is a very historical election: To my knowledge it is the only time in our nation's history that discrimination is being amended into (as opposed to out of) a constitution (state or otherwise).
When this phenomenon is occurring in our country's bluest state, and when its largest proponents are the very victims of the last generation's Civil Rights debate, there is certainly reason to care.
The fact that this thing actually passed really does spoil that feeling of triumph I got overhearing the election news the other night. I'm rather ashamed that so many people of my own race helped push such an obviously hateful thing to succeed. You'd think we'd know better considering our race's past struggles but I'm not completely surprised by this since for some reason, being considered gay in the African American community almost seems like a complete and total affront to the strong black male image that is so prominently featured in pop culture. At times it feels like if you accuse one of being gay at all, he'd be ready to beat you into the grave to prove otherwise.
I observe this sort of thing time after time while slaving nights in the backroom of Wal Mart. The cheap wisecracks, the typical macho posturing. It really can be a total parade of sexual insecurity in these places. I so wish I could call them out on it.. finally just say "Hey, you're cracking wise about people like me here!". The very thought of two guys getting married, kissing... sex? A complete and total assault on the whole macho man gangsta BS I have to somehow tolerate. After all, nothing's more important to a brother than bragging about how many bit**** he's banged and his bling (Massive Sarcasm).
It's like the entire culture's focused on immature d*** measuring games. At the same time it even makes me question just how "black" I really am since I follow little to none of the usual stereotyped examples you see on BET.
Every little foolish, cold-hearted joke... it stings, but Texas isn't exactly a bastion of gay tolerance. Without that support, I don't think I could safely come out at all in a place like this.
I honestly choked up this morning when I heard the prop 8 news.
I don't understand what's in people's hearts that could cause them to strip us of our freedoms.
My above post wasn't intended to infer that things are hopeless. From a far off perspective things will eventually turn in our favor, but not on their own -- they need our help. Shrugging your shoulders and saying "fair is fair" isn't helpful, it's not even American.
"Well, democracy goes both ways. Majority wins. :( I'm bummed out, but fair's fair."
The majority won, all right, but it's the farthest thing from "fair" that I can possibly imagine. Does no one see the fundamental unfairness of having minority rights up for popular vote? Does NO ONE see how utterly against the very concept of this country that is?
I hope everyone that voted "Yes" on 8 dies in a house fire.
What's this "majority wins" bullcrap? What are they teaching you people in history class?!? We don't have a democracy by simple majority. We don't have to bend to the will of the mob. We have a constitutional republic that guarantees individual liberties.
Prop 8 was always wrong no matter how popular it was. The rights of minorities should never be left up to the majority. That's not America. Whether a group is 99% of the population or 1%, we are all promised freedom and equality.
There is nothing "fair" about Prop 8, and this fight is far from over.
"I don't understand what's in people's hearts that could cause them to strip us of our freedoms."
For some it could be the fact that those wanting equality and freedom have no problem taking it away from others.
I know several gay individuals and each thinks it is a crime that they are not allowed to get married but in the next sentence will comment on how we need to take guns away from so called nutjobs or take someones income because they are thought to have too much. Then I can go out the next day and talk to straight people who have no issue with gay marriage but get some satisfaction from seeing it fail because they are looked at as crazy or terrible for their choices.
I think EMs post said it best.
The gay community isn't free from bias or closed mindedness and it never surprises me to see how mean people can be to each other especially when they feel they are being attack.
"Well, democracy goes both ways. Majority wins. :( I'm bummed out, but fair's fair."
Majority wins, minority rights.
This was in place since the founding fathers.
@ Mike:
Comparing civil liberties like marriage to gun ownership laws is at best stupid and at most infuriatingly insulting.
We don't "feel" like we're being attacked, we ARE BEING ATTACKED. Think before you post.
Mike, that's pretty ridiculous. Nobody wants to take guns away from responsible hunters or anyone else who is competent enough to own one, and nobody wants to take other people's income away and give it to others. You're falling for the same old right wing talking points and they are getting really stale.
The major factor in the fight against gay equality is: Religion. The elephant in the room. Abrahamic religion teaches that homosexuality is wrong. The Bible suggests the death penalty for it. This is the ultimate source of homophobia in the West and the number one reason we don't have equality. The Bible is the number one justification for homophobia in America, and anti-gay legislation is the ultimate breach of the First Amendment and the separation of church and state.
Simply put, these people are so willing to fight against gay equality because they are so utterly convinced it is the righteous thing to do. And when someone believes God wants them to hold a certain viewpoint, it can be damn near impossible to convince them of anything else.
"@ Mike:
Comparing civil liberties like marriage to gun ownership laws is at best stupid and at most infuriatingly insulting.
We don't "feel" like we're being attacked, we ARE BEING ATTACKED. Think before you post."
And here it is.
What you want and feel is so much more important then what someone else wants or feels. How open minded and worldly of you.
If people just stayed out of each others business we could all be happy but we are all closed minded and prejudice, doesn't matter if we are white,black,gay,straight or whatever.
@ Mike
What we want is simple equality, you raging imbecile. If you can't fathom that then you're a bigger idiot than I currently think you are.
"You're falling for the same old right wing talking points and they are getting really stale."
Oh yeah the right wing, yeah those talking points, gotta watch out for them.
At no point am I suggesting that religion isn't the main issue preventing the passage of gay marriage. The invisible man in the sky telling me what is good and bad has too much influence over everyones life but still doesn't change the fact that people are upset about the passage of a bill or the election of a person who will deny them what they feel is important yet vote for someone who will deny others.
"What we want is simple equality, you raging imbecile. If you can't fathom that then you're a bigger idiot than I currently think you are."
A man should be able to marry and man, two married men should be allowed to own guns, those same two men should be allowed to adopt children, and pay as little to no taxes at all.
Both parties want to take some of that away from the two men. Why is the guy you are voting for better? Why is it the things you deny people less harmful and cruel?
Does NO ONE see how utterly against the very concept of this country that is?
Of course its unfair, America has never been fair to minorities and things it doesn't understand.
It's why I don't understand where this whole 'land of the free' motto came from, since it's never been that...
Hopefully though, before the end of our lifetimes, your country as a whole will change, for the better.
That's all we can hope for.
The US had a thing against interracial marriage once. But that passed and to suggest that such a thing is morally wrong now, is considered very wrong. Same sex marriage will follow a similar path. But you won't get it through staying quiet and doing as you are told.
Wow... just wow... Hey, guys? I have an idea. Maybe instead of bickering amongst ourselves we all get together and get out there to fight this thing? I don't live in California myself, but there are things that all of us can do in our various communities to start fighting back against this injustice. Sitting here on a gaming website and arguing at each other gets us absolutely nowhere. File petitions, organize anti-Prop 8 groups, start pointing out the ridiculous thing for what it is. The people who want gay marriage banned want exactly this. They want a divided community that can't stand up and be counted when the time comes. Let's not give them that option.
Many colors, many creeds, many classes.
One people.
No one is talking about taking away guns!!! (headdesk)
You really ARE that thick, aren't you?
I know this is tuff and unfair everyone, but this WILL happen, we will see our rights as GLBT persons acknowlaged. We have a gay friendly PREZ in the White House, and everytime a issue like this goes to the polls; we see more and more acceptance. Dont give up hope. Like Obama says: "YES WE CAN" and YES WE WILL!!!
I know this is tuff and unfair everyone, but this WILL happen, we will see our rights as GLBT persons acknowlaged. We have a gay friendly PREZ in the White House, and everytime a issue like this goes to the polls; we see more and more acceptance. Dont give up hope. Like Obama says: "YES WE CAN" and YES WE WILL!!!
Gay marriage will pass in Cali, don't worry. I mean if we have it in CT then Cali will change back in no time. Be optimistic.
But democracy goes both ways. Majority wins. I'm bummed out, but if we are all to get along, we have to all abide by the system. Not only when it works in our favor. Boo that gay people have no equal rights, but well, majority wins. :(
This is the most depressing statement I've read all day. This is in fact more depressing than the passage of prop 8 itself.
It's depressing because the writer has obviously no concept of what democracy, equality, freedom, and fairness really are about.
I'm really at a loss for words.
Hey all,
just wanted to weigh in on this and first offer my condolences. I am a straight man but campaigned in San Diego against this amendment.
I was moved and in tears from the moment John McCain gave his concession to Congressman Lewis' outpouring awestruck pride.
Then this morning Prop 8 passed. I was heart broke. My loved ones aren't less deserving of rights than anyone else. This amendment is unconstitutional, and the ACLU has filed suit in California Supreme Court as well as a few other lawsuits. This has become a national story and will be discussed on a new level....and mark my words WILL BE OVERTURNED.
Its hard to believe that in one night a minority groups rights have been put to a majority vote and taken away and another minority group has been lifted to new heights.
Keep your chins up, this isn't over and you are not alone in this fight. It will take as long as it has too.
love to all
e
Well Slavery is in the bible.... odd... I guess this is why I voted for Hillary, though i'm not entirely happy with her stance on violent video games I am very happy that her ideals about gay and GLBT Americans would have given us more rights than we are currently held back from. In either case I am somehow dissapointed that many people put race into this election and doesn't bother to acknowledge that President Elect Obama is only Half African American. So wich half did people vote for? I just wonder why it's Never mentioned. Sorry for such a long post
I was being sarcastic re: "fair's fair." Sorry that didn't come across. In fact, the whole tone was sorta facetious.
I AM on your/our side.
I'm sorry to break your American-centricism, but there are several other countries where gay marriage is legal. So it isn't just Fable that allows it. ;P
But honestly, if you think USA has problems with gays, try being "out and proud" in Russia, Sudan or the Arabic Emirates, for example. You have a much higher chance of getting beaten, lynched - or what's worse, hanged by a court order.
In Finland, we gays are quite a silent minority, but at least we've been given the right to register our relationships. There's still some work to do in order to get a right to marry each other and adopt each other's children, though.
This post was just to give you guys a flash of what the situation is elsewhere - if you care, that is.
Sami has a point, you're losing a little ground on an enormous amount of ground gained, in the long run, we will win there, it's only a matter of time.
It was only 40 years ago Homosexuality was still classed as a mental illness, we've made gains in that time black people could only dream of in the late 19th century.
However try been openly gay in an Islamic country, or Eastern Europe, or an African country, you think your fellow Americans are bad, at least they won't jail you until you die, or hang you like they do to gays in Iran, then deny you exist at all.
Perspective is easy when you're not affected by rulings, but I do feel the point Sami made is incredibly relevant.
The problem is a lot of Americans are completely inward looking, so you can probably expect a torrent of abuse for having a dissenting opinion, while those that agree stay quiet.
Sami makes a good point, but saying that we're better than Russia or the Sudan on gay rights isn't exactly saying a lot. The whole point is that America holds itself up as a bastion of freedom and equality, yet continually proves that that only applies if you're hetero Christian. It's the rank hypocrisy that's so infuriating and galling.
For the record - B. Obama is also against gay marriage, as is the majority of the Democratic Party. Its easy to just keel over intellectually and blame all the world's problems on the GOP and Republications, but there's plenty of blame to go around.
Second - Marriage is NOT a Constitutional Right. If anything, the inept Amendment try a fear years back would have made it so, but as of yet its not a fundamental right. Just saying it is won't make it son.
Third - The Constitution guarantees that any law not specifically stated goes to States Rights. California (a heavily Democratic state) voted to Ban Gay Marriage. They were acting within their Constitutional Right (see above). Again, this was supported by the 1994 Defense of Marriage Act, signed into law by President Clinton.
...this issue is far more complex, yet infuriatingly simple than some would have you believe. That said, I wish that GayGamer wouldn't add to the hate-speech pile by comparing the GOP and Fox News to Nazis on their front page...that helps nothing and is glaringly against the facts.
Both parties are AGAINST Gay Marriage, and a predominantly Democratic State voted to outlaw it. We may not like the results, but democracy doesn't only work when we get our own way. Please keep the conversation intelligent, civil, and less degrading to all people. Thanks.
RE: Super Dooper
You're right that 'marriage' in and of itself IS NOT a constitutional right. But the 14th amendment does state that all citizens should have equal protection under the law. Denying gay couples the right to marry strips them of a lot of the LEGAL protections that straight married couples have like tax benefits, inheritance rights, hospital visitation rights, etc.
Living in L.A. these past 3 days have been an emotional roller coaster for me. But we can't give up people. Obama showed us that in this country anything is possible-- we just have to work hard and eventually that more perfect union will happen! Yes We Can!!!
I'll be civil when I have all my civil rights, thanks. Until then, it's rage time.